Richard Oliver

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Posts by Richard Oliver

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  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

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  Richard Oliver

  The closest argument that I can find in the US is Title 42 Title 21 subsection 1985(3) it basically says that two or more people cannot conspire to deprive someone of a constitutionally protected right such as speech, association or voting. But the courts have ruled that the person who is claiming this violation must pass a 4 part test:

  (1) a conspiracy; (2) for the purpose of depriving, either directly or indirectly, any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws, or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws; and (3) an act in furtherance of the conspiracy; (4) whereby a person is either injured in his person or property or deprived of any right or privilege of a citizen of the United States.

  In Tauvar v Bar Harbour Congregation of Jehovah's Witensses the court ruled:

  In his deposition, plaintiff does variously refer to “disfellowshipped” members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, members of the general public, and individuals generally with religious beliefs different than those of the Jehovah's Witnesses, as the “class” of which he is a member. Tauvar Deposition, at 123–124. Plaintiff also states that his religious views reflect doctrinal differences *746 with the religious views advocated by the Jehovah's Witnesses.12 Id. at 181–183. Yet beyond these general statements it is unclear precisely what is the composition of the “class.” Plaintiff simply refers to people who have been thrown out of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Tauvar Deposition, at 142, and states that because of certain doctrinal differences Watchtower has prevented “our” attendance at the organization's public meetings, id. at 145. However, plaintiff also states that the Congregation welcomes members of all faiths, including “disfellowshipped” members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that individuals who share plaintiff's particular views, see note 12 supra, attend public meetings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Tauvar Deposition, at 158, 160, 161–162.13

  Even assuming that plaintiff can establish a class of similarly situated “disfellowshipped” members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, plaintiff's section 1985(3) claim must fail.14 “The requirement that the discrimination be ‘class-based’ is not satisfied by an allegation that there was a conspiracy which affected the interests of the class of persons similarly situated with the plaintiff[ ].” Harrison v. Brooks, 519 F.2d at 1359–1360. Since plaintiff himself asserts that the Congregation welcomes “disfellowshipped” members to its public meetings, as well as individuals who share plaintiff's particular religious views, plaintiff has neither alleged nor presented facts to show either a conspiracy directed at the plaintiff because of his membership in a class of “disfellowshipped” Jehovah's Witnesses or that the criteria defining this class were invidious. Opprobrious epithets do not satisfy the requirements of section 1985(3). Accordingly, the court ACCEPTS the Magistrate's recommendation GRANTING the defendants' motions to dismiss and for summary judgment on plaintiff's section 1985 claim.

  
  

  
  
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  In Bates v Kingdom Hall of the Congregation the court wrote this:

  Indeed, it is the essence of religious faith that ecclesiastical decisions are reached and are to be accepted as matters of faith whether or not rational or measurable by objective criteria. Constitutional concepts of due process, involving secular notions of “fundamental fairness” or impermissible objectives, are therefore hardly relevant to such matters of ecclesiastical cognizance.
  
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  In the US for the government to enforce a prior restraint on the speech of a citizen or an organization they have to show a compelling governmental interest in restraining that speech. The most common expression that comes to mind is that you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater, but why would that restraint be permissible. The government has a compelling interest in keeping citizens safe from the undue panic that could cause foreseeable and imminent danger. If someone yells fire in a crowded theatre many people will rush out of the theatre and the likelihood of injuries is read and substantial so there is a compelling interest in stopping that kind of speech. The other issue is that Watchtower can claim freedom of the press when they present material in a written format they are serving in a capacity of the press. In New York Times v United States the court ruled that the government could not stop the paper from printing the pentagon papers even though the Nixon administration felt that there was a compelling government interest in keeping secrets just that secret. The court ruled that there is a heavy burden that the government must show in order to restrain the conduct of the press and that even those secrets did not rise to the level of that burden.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  Even if one would agree with the contention that shunning should be illegal it raises a number of questions. Who would enforce no shunning rules? How would you enforce it? How can someone prove that they didn't speak to someone not for religious reasons but for another reason? Would family members be required to communicate with each other a certain amount each day, week, month or year? Would there be jail time for not communicating with someone?
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  19

  Being homosexual in a JW house hold

  by Jean in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i could not find a topic about this if there is one ooops.

  it is hard to speak with my mother or any other witnesses about this, their response is "its ok to be gay just don't ever 'act out.

  acting out = being with someone even if its a healthy consensual legal relationship between two adults its still wrong.

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  Richard Oliver

  Jean I am in very much the same circumstances. I still believe in the tenets of JWs except that I am gay. It is rough I am not going to say it isn't but you have to do what you think is best for you and your circumstances and what you believe in. I still remember what a psychiatrist told me when I was coming to terms with my sexuality, he was gay too, he said there is no wrong way to live as a gay man, everyone has different circumstances and different desires.
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  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  Look at Glass v First United Pentecostal Church of DeRidder. A gentleman sued his church, which is his civil right to do so, but the repercussions that came from that action is something that the government cannot intervene in.

  It is evident to us that this dispute is rooted in an ecclesial tenet of The First United Pentecostal Church which prohibits members from suing fellow church members. Certainly, in civil law the plaintiffs-appellants had a right to pursue their mandamus action. However, we hasten to add that the religious repercussions that were set into motion as a result of the exercise of their civil right is another matter beyond the reach of judicial authority. In that light, anything we might consider in our analysis of the two exceptions to their petition for damages would require us to apply, interpret, and comment upon The First United Pentecostal Church tenet against the institution of suits among church members
  
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  From your own words "You might think bullying is worse than ostracism" so clearly there is a distinction between bullying and ostracism. What you indicated in previous posts is that if bullying leads to suicide that the person who did the bullying can be prosecuted but if bullying and ostracism is different things that would be a different circumstance.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  The congregation is not engaging in the activity of shunning, it can be said that they are encouraging individual members to engage in the activity but the organization is not doing that. In fact, their official agents are encouraged to communicate with disfellowshipped and disassociated individuals when elders go and speak with those individuals. And again even though the statement of shunning indicates an action what it really is doing is not engaging in activity that of speech and association with someone else.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  When you sue anyone you have to show damages that were caused by the person actions. It is only under very narrow circumstances can someone be sued for not acting. It is the difference between malfeasance and nonfeasance, malfeasance you have done an act that is against the law whereas nonfeasance is you didn't do something that you are required to do.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  aboveusonlysky what you are referring too in bullying requires an action not the lack of action. The action is the actual bullying of someone which requires direct and systematic harassment of an individual. Shunning is different it is the lack of action on a person. And the announcement that is made at a meeting that someone is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses is a true statement that is also why it is not a libel statement. If they claimed that someone was an adulterer and that is why they were disfellowshipped and they never committed the act then that would be a libel statement.